Anyone Feel Left Out??

[naturelover24]

sadly, society wants most people to have careers, especially business ones. thats the best way to waste your life in my opinion. no passion, living in routine and isolation from the world.

but us on this board obviously feel different, we value earth and people more than money and possessions, well hopefully we all do. and people like us and Chris are hard to come by these days. Does anyone have trouble meeting people who absolutely love traveling, dont want careers, love people, and dont conform to societys pressures of a apathetic career/selfishness??

I know i do...

[GoNorth]

society wants most people to have careers, especially business ones. .

I ask you again: who is this "society" that wants people to do certain things? As far as I know, the definition of "society" is all the people altogether. I mean, every person is part of society (regional, national or global). Of course, you might speak of a "sick society" if a major part of these society members seem to have chosen some kind of senseless way of life. But you are still part of this society as well as all these others are and each of them, each of us, make their own decisions in life.

[Ascetic]

As far as I know, the definition of "society" is all the people altogether

Agreed. There is no "society" with supervenient existence over and above that of the individuals that constitute it. Society is comprised of all human beings.

I'm largely sympathetic to what Naturelover is saying, but he comes across as overly judgmental at times. I know some people who chose business careers, and they lead very passionate, fulfilling lives. Making money is not something about which I'm personally passionate, but hey, to each his, or her, own.

What I want to say is, it doesn't always have to be either/or. Sometimes it can be both/and. You can love earth and people, while simultaneously loving the pursuit of wealth. Wanting money is no more selfish than wanting water, or shelter. I think a problem arises if money becomes an end in itself, as Aristotle once recognized, but if one uses money as a means to an end: i.e., to happiness, then I don't see much that is wrong with that. Legitimate self-interest is a necessity in life.

Money can definitely contribute to your overall happiness, and if used for that purpose, how can you find fault with that?

[pezar]

For example, I will need money to buy the land in the woods that I want to live on. Money is a tool, it can be used for good or evil. The problem comes when we use money as a replacement for family or God or things that truly bring happiness. It seems that Chris thought that's what his parents were doing. I know that over the last 20 years there existed a financial elite class that "kept score" with money, and all that mattered was having lots of digits in one's bank account balance. They just wanted the "score", as if it was a basketball game. That is disgusting. So much money has been amassed by a small elite that most people even in America struggle to pay for necessities like food, while the elite ring up their scores. I think there's such a thing as working too hard for very little reward, and then using one's meager paycheck to buy junk. Such people always seem to be chasing "happiness", but they never find it, since happiness comes from within. I tend to see parallels between, say, Black Friday shopping mobs and our hunter gatherer distant past. The BF shoppers act as if they're hunters in pursuit of prey. Maybe if they did some actual hunting, instead of doing their hunting at the mall, they would be happier.

[naturelover24]

"Gonorth" when i say society i mean society pressures us and conforms us to the thought of "the american dream", working 9-5 everyday, valuing money over passion, and selfishness and greed over humility and harmony...

[GoNorth]

i mean society pressures us and conforms us to the thought of "the american dream", working 9-5 everyday, valuing money over passion, and selfishness and greed over humility and harmony...

I think I understand what you mean in principal, it's just the fact that you use the word "society" as if you were not a member of it yourself. So I guess you just mean a certain majority of people.
I also encounter some problems once in a while by not fitting too well into the image of the average society member. But it's up to each of us to find our own way and not have others restrict or intimidate us too much.

I think a problem arises if money becomes an end in itself,

Right. Unfortunately many people seem to have this problem.

[Ascetic]

Right. Unfortunately many people seem to have this problem.

Sure they do. Am I the only one that finds this predicament ironic?

In the more materialistic strands of Marxist thought, all of humanity's problems are solvable by economic means: i.e., money is the source of society's woes, yet it's also its salvation. However, Capitalist America, which is supposed to stand in direct, economic opposition to Marxism, really offers us little more. Sure, we still own private property, and the government, in most cases, isn't supposed to regulate the economy, but money remains the central focus in life. It's problematic when we don't have enough of it, and the problem is solved when we achieve the "American Dream." As I see it, a certain, disconcerting materialism pervades both ideologies. As if economics were the answer to all our prayers.

I'm holding out for something better. My salvation, or damnation, can't rest with anything material; certainly not with anything as insignificant as owning the newest fucking iPhone.

[pezar]

Right. Unfortunately many people seem to have this problem.

Sure they do. Am I the only one that finds this predicament ironic?

In the more materialistic strands of Marxist thought, all of humanity's problems are solvable by economic means: i.e., money is the source of society's woes, yet it's also its salvation. However, Capitalist America, which is supposed to stand in direct, economic opposition to Marxism, really offers us little more. Sure, we still own private property, and the government, in most cases, isn't supposed to regulate the economy, but money remains the central focus in life. It's problematic when we don't have enough of it, and the problem is solved when we achieve the "American Dream." As I see it, a certain, disconcerting materialism pervades both ideologies. As if economics were the answer to all our prayers.

I'm holding out for something better. My salvation, or damnation, can't rest with anything material; certainly not with anything as insignificant as owning the newest fucking iPhone.

Watch the video footage of Black Friday shoppers I posted, people acting as if Life As We Know It would end if they didn't get a laptop for $198. The entire world system seems to revolve around making asset bubbles, then creating real debt out of that fictional wealth to buy cheap crap and then sticking the average guy with having to repay the debt at gunpoint while the bankers get all the benefits. This has been going on for 60 years, and is at the point now where global debt is three times global assets, and there are too many people and too few jobs. The last time this happened, we had two massive global wars that destroyed the excess. This time, it's likely to be nuclear, and there will be no recovery. So we destroyed civilization and threw humanity back to the stone age because we created debt that couldn't be repaid. Excuse me, but that is the STUPIDEST reason to destroy the world that I've ever heard of. I say shoot the bankers and burn the banks, instead of the bankers pulling the plug on humanity because they can't get paid back. I certainly don't think that money is worth destroying the world for. Money is an abstract concept, it's a totally human idea, and that's all it is is an idea. You don't see jungle animals using money do you? People act as if money is real, when it's not.

[bobenns]

Unfortunately we are at a point where money does make the world go around. Virtually no one can live without some money. A lot of people do live on less but to cut ourselves off 100% would be taking a step farther than Chris did. Go out there with no technology. Greed and/or lust for power has driven all major civilizations since before records were kept. Trading has been a cornerstone of every civilization. Commerce is as old as mankind.

I often think back to the days of wooden sailing ships exploring the globe and how I was born in the wrong time. Or the days of steam and the magnificent paddle wheelers plying the inland waterways while gamblers placed their bets in the casino, or steam engines pulling slow moving trains through the mountains while passengers stared out the windows at the magnificent landscape passing by. Those romantic times of exploration and adventure. It was all driven by commerce, commerce and growth.

Today technology and growth have accelerated to a point it seems of no return. Things have gotten moving so fast that no one can keep up. Its starting to really spiral out of control. Trade and commerce are good things within certain limits, but when the entire world economy is being driven by corporations that only have profit as a motive we end up with what we have now. Instability and uncertainty for workers, employers for producers and consumers and still anything to try and make one more quick deal for a quick buck before it falls apart.

I know this is an over simplification. But thats what it is and its scary. Corporations are dictating to western governments, running western governments. Corporations are running eastern governments. On the global scale Ideologies are clashing between east and west, they want our money, we want their oil, they hate us for what we have done to the world. All based on corporate greed.

I read a great article today about how commercial fishing has expanded on a global scale in the last 60 years. Fish stocks have been in serious decline for decades but they have compensated for that by expanding the areas where they fish to the point where now there are no unexploited areas left. We are on the verge of global collapse of most commercial fish stocks. Again, corporations driven only by greed and the bottom line.

We have to learn to make do with less. The world won't end, but it will change and it may well be very hard for some people when they do have to live with very little or no money. It looks like the last big dip in the global economy is passing. Will we learn from the mistakes in time to avoid a really big and deep depression?

[SteveSalmon]

~SS